The Fray on the (inside) cover of Rolling Stone

• WON* Also The Fray can be from Denver but I'm from Europa and I follow them since 2005 so there is not point anymore, the thing is called HARDWORK and TALENT.

• JP you just win the game it's OK YOU ARE FREE NOW. PS; I love Ian too.

• Aaron, If you think I insulted you then YOU are, in fact, the one who missed the point. I was sincerely interested in what you might contribute to this dialogue, and was not being facetious when I said you were obviously talented and did something right. Basically the last insult was when you said my argument was bunk because it was unoriginal, and I was only trying to address that by saying a lack of originality is not necessarily a hallmark of a bad argument, just as it is not necessarily a hallmark of bad music; examples followed to facilitate conversation, but maybe not everyone likes a little humble dialogue and self-exploration. We'll just choose to "leave it" right here. Thanks to Dave Hererra for volleying back and forth with me; I have a new found respect for you and the thought process behind your work. I'm looking forward to working with you, and am excited to further my own understanding of 'the scene' while helping talented musicians (like James fucking Han! Hooray!) get the exposure they deserve.

• Wow... You missed the entire point... Which makes me understand you even more. As much as you would like this to be about me... It's not... So I will skip over your misrepresentation of my words, and ignore your passive aggresive insults... Like I said, take it or leave it. Later

• Aaron, I'm sorry if I offended you; why not just chalk it up to taste? Indeed you obviously have some talent, as you have accomplished what few people -- perhaps one for every ten thousand or more who dare to dream it -- could claim to have experienced in their lifetime. Please: don't jest. One of my favorite quotes is: "luck is the residue of design," so I'm not one to say that you're just lucky; obviously you've done something right, and -- if you really were as inexperienced as you said when this all started -- the expediency of your success is testament to that. Why so bitter, buddy? I could take my guesses, while unfurling bits of information gleaned from past psychology classes, (a red flag goes up whenever someone feels the need to fervently defend an accomplishment) but my beef isn't with you; in fact, if you read (and, hopefully, if I wrote) my post correctly, the underlying 'beef' is with that which is engendered within 'us' consumerist citizens for profit-making. Not to blow my own proverbial horn, but a dialogue about 'pop art' as a reflection of the climate from which it was born is -- while you are right, not terribly original -- frightfully pithy; at least as pithy as the age-old (read: unoriginal) question "what's life?" Without going through the motions of trying to provide further support to my argument, I'll trust that we're all in agreement (yes, including me) that unoriginal does not, by definition, mean "bad". Clearly there is plenty of ground to be broken, even in the hackneyed and over-harvested (and future wasteland) of popular 'rock' music. Bob Pollard showed us that, over, and over, and over again, yet regardless of the honesty and clarity reflected in a line like "as we vegetate/and wait around for brighter days/and can dance contented to the sound of money" Bob Pollard's hook-laden masterpieces of juicy and catching pop will never grace the trailer for an ongoing ABC series or a WB teen drama. Why is that? What's the difference between The Fray and Bob Pollard, aside from breadth of catalog and nearly a decade of touring and releasing records without national recognition? I have an answer, but it would make this post longer than it needs to be. To address Mr. Hererra's comment: Nickelback might be our generation's AC/DC, but AC/DC didn't sound like any of their predecessors; Nickelback, to the untrained ear, could easily pass for Creed, Lifehouse, Train, Matchbox 20, etc. ad nauseum, which all owe everything to Mr. Cobain; the corporations just needed some time to polish it up in the studio before everybody else and their mother would pick it up at Target. God forbid we have to airbrush some baby penises before Walton's rag stocks it, but this new stuff, I mean, they could be singing about Jesus and families! What is the difference between AC/DC and Nickelback? What's the difference between U2 and Coldplay? And what, pray tell, is the difference between Bob Pollard and The Fray? All are "pop music" but some of these artists will go down in history as the icons and trail-blazers they are, and the rest will be lost in the deluge of corporate radio "fridge-buzz" (thanks, Tom Yorke). Cherish what you have, Aaron. It's fleeting, as we live in an age where every single thing lasts ... well, doesn't last at all, because then they couldn't make you buy it again and again. Originality isn't a good business model; hell, environmentalism and humanitarianism aren't good business models either, but could we really look ourselves in the mirror if we didn't really wish that it was? Would captains of industry really be so upset if they really thought deep down that what they acquired was because it was "right" and not just because it was what they wanted? I could buck and bray at you calling me thoughtless and unoriginal, but -- for some reason -- it really didn't upset me that much.

• DH, I think you give this guy credit where credit is not due. If one is going to stand on a soap box and whine about originality, please be original. To rail against popular music is as old as a "perfect cadence". You expose yourself... I feel your ignorance speaks through your tone, but especially in your substance. No artist is "handed" sales of over 3 million records.... It takes hard work, determination, and believe it or not... talent. It is a shame you relinquish The Fray from being a "Denver Band" because of your disdain for their music. The price of success is what it is... but for someone that sounds like a true local music fan, I am surprised you dis them so hard. They came through the scene, they have elevated the exposure of the scene, they continue to praise the underlying cultivation the scene brings to making art (popular or not). But alas I must admit I am a big fan of The Fray... I produced the records you are talking about. I learned some things about myself through you.... apparently I am one talented mother fucker. Someone knew me, who knew them, who knew someone else.... and I had the nerf-know-how to flip the millions of records switch!! Hahaha... of course I jest, but listen to what you are saying, do you really think that is how it works? I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and believe you have never taken the time to understand what Isaac and Joe's songs are about, DH knows the lyrics are not fluff... and DH has cred... so maybe you will take a closer look. Go buy the new record, anyone with a heart will have a hard time not crying at least twice through the course of the LP... and I would bet thrice (because three times does not rhyme, and that would affect record sales). The truth is I met the guys long before they were The Fray, when I was in a "Local Denver Band". The truth is my cousin was the original drummer and gave me their first demo. The truth is I was a nobody producer who got together with them to record some songs, because I was a big fan of those first demos. The truth is that I recorded the demo (pre-major label) for Cable Car, with the original bassist (who is one of the most creative musicians I have EVER met)... there was no "before the producer stepped in". We did it together in 48 hours. My final caveat.... I would usually not waste my breath with this post... this is not the first time I have seen these thoughts about popular music (again it's sooo original). Except here I believe The Fray deserve more then being panned for being popular... especially from a local music fan. These guys have worked for every single thing they have received, and though opinions like yours JP are not new or particularly thoughtful, they don't deserve it here.... in the light you painted them in... take it or leave it. Later! PS I love Ian Cooke.

• DH, "Consider this an open invitation to write for the paper anytime." I was going to go to school for journalism, and briefly did some writing about music for Kaffeine Buzz, but ultimately completed my degree in Philosophy with the intent for second major in English, yet only finished the former. So, yes, I would love to write for the paper. Do you mean in an actual employment/freelance capacity, or were you just welcoming me to post my tirades on the paper's website anytime? I'm not sure how this works, but from watching "Almost Famous" I would assume you give me an assignment, a deadline, and then offer compensation. E-mail: rownerowner@yahoo.com Contact me when you can, and thanks; you also made my day. I have a new-found respect for you, even if the thought of AC/DC and Nickelback in the same league made me scrunch-up my nose in disgust. (I see your comparison, but would offer others.) That's a discussion for another time though.

• I just wanted to comment that I'm wearing a Slim Cessna's Auto Club t-shirt (that's worn out and faded from wearing almost once a week for the last 4 years) while re-mixing some Fray songs. Apparently, the two artists aren't mutually exclusive for everyone... But, I also like Kelly Clarkson, so, I may be inherently flawed.

• Wow, where to begin? You make some great points here. Your first assertion is dead on, in my book. The fundamentals of pop music haven't changed much, if at all, over the years. Verse-chorus-verse, ad infinitum. If anything, it's gotten even worse. The template has become so hackneyed, in fact, that you can often hear the chord changes before they happen, whether you've heard the song or not (most likely you have, just under a different name.) Even so -- and I�ve said this before, but I think it bears repeating � unorginality doesn�t bother me so much, provided that a) an artist can transcend his influences and put enough of a spin on things to make it his own, b) do it so well, that the question of where it comes from becomes inconsequential, or c) create something that provokes a reaction in me, positive or negative. At the end of the day, there�s only so many notes and configurations that can be played. As I�ve said before, show me a truly groundbreaking artist, and I�ll show you music that tests the limits of listenability. And those artists who are brave enough to subvert convention are often rewarded with indifference, relegated to cult status, playing to a finite audience, because, as much as it pains me to say, most people are casual listeners, who are just not particularly interested in being challenged by the art/music they consume. For every Mars Volta or Secret Chiefs 3, there are countless thousands of manufactured superstars. And even at that, some of those artists weren�t always creating compelling art. Take the former, for example: Listen to �Give It a Name,� and tell me that it compares to songs like �Son et Lumiere.� With that in mind, I think we�re in agreement. Yes, much of the music being made these days has a tendency to be mindless. And, this, sadly, as you pointed out, is a reflection of the social climate in which it was created. But at its core, really, this is a simple case of supply and demand. Coincidentally, I had this exact conversation with a friend of mine last week at lunch. He posited that we're experiencing our own form of <em>Idiocracy</em>, culturally, that it's the '70s all over again, with interchangeable, bearded bands like the Fleet Foxes playing the role of the Eagles, while everything else amounts to disco. He's obviously more jaded than I am. I'm actually quite fond of Fleet Foxes, myself. Back to the point, though, this notion certainly accounts for why we have acts like Nickelback, who, in my humble opinion, is our generation's AC/DC (that's another discussion for another time). The reason they can make a living trafficking such trite, misogynistic lyrics is because they have an eager audience: Fact is, they speak to the dude working his ass off all week who just wants to drink beers on Friday night and rock out. What�s more, they're telling his life story, not unlike the way that modern country does, which is why it resonates with so many flag-waving Red Staters. Likewise, and back to my main point, while the Fray admittedly isn't pushing the envelope artistically, it strikes a sentimental chord with a stunning number of people, who -- like it or not -- are moved by the music. I'm one of those people. Does that make incapable of recognizing and appreciating more challenging art? I sure hope not, as that's the soul of any true music fan, that insatiable desire to fill our lives with things that move us. While, I'm in constant pursuit -- like I imagine you are -- of artists that push my boundaries and make me reconsider my preconceptions, at the same time, I also have a pronounced weakness for a good pop melody and lyrics I can relate to. So, yes, do I think we should demand more from our artists? Absolutely. Just the same, is looking down our noses at those we consider to be less enlightened listeners ultimately going to shift the paradigm. Doubtful. In the same token, the corporate overlords are going to continue to perpetuate things as long as there�s an audience. For my part, I can honestly say that I�m not being "paid" by anybody, as you put it, to push any agenda. Any dubious sensibilities you�ve detected on my part, either now or in the past, are all mine. And I�ll own that. So, if anything, depending upon your perspective, I�m guilty of having bad taste � or, more to the point, tastes that may not align with yours. Hell, I don�t know how you feel about onions (leave it to the fat kid to draw a parallel to food, right?), but I make it a profession to hate them unequivocally. Finally, in terms of putting Love.45 and the Fray on the cover. Yep. I had a part in that. Guilty again, as charged. The climate in Denver, if you�ll remember, was different back then. Up to that point, we really hadn�t had the type of exposure that we take for granted now. Back then it would�ve been major, stop-the-presses news if a band from here had its song played on a television show. And now, for chrissakes, it seems like <em>One Tree Hill</em> plays an act from Denver in every episode. So back then, frankly, I was as excited as everybody else and got kind of caught up in prognosticating and later, ultimately, self-congratulation. Nearly four years removed, I have a clearer perspective on things. In places like New York or Austin or Chicago or San Francisco or LA, I doubt they spend too much time thinking about how the outside world perceives them. I�ve got to imagine that�s an after thought, which allows them to think deeper about the things that truly matter, the music that�s being made and, most importantly, how they�re effected by <em>that</em>. With that in mind, that�s what I�m striving to be devoted to these days. And with regard to the Fray, I�ve got to tell you, we�re going to keep covering them as long as they�re newsworthy. We�d be remiss if we didn�t. And on the eve of the release of their follow-up, all eyes are on them, including ours. In the meantime, you can trust that I�ll do my part not to praise stagnation � that is, of course, unless that stagnation happens to be meaningful to me. Well, that�s all I�ve got. Thanks for making me think on a Saturday. It�s a pleasure to respond to someone like you, who�s clearly very thoughtful, intelligent and well spoken. You made my day, man, seriously. Consider this an open invitation to write for the paper anytime. Cheers, -- dh p.s. Meant to say this earlier: "nerf-coat their blunted parts"? Nice, man!

• You by no means insulted my intelligence; pop music is, by definition, that which appeals to the most people. Unfortunately, as I failed to elaborate upon, the idea of what "pop music" is has changed little since its inception over 50 years ago; the song structures are the same -- hell, even some of the SONGS are the same. Wow, didn't Blues Traveller pull one over on the entire world when they completely ripped off "La Bamba" and made millions of dollars. Nobody even cared, because people are so afraid of having a new thought that they even embrace the same thing. What's the merit and context of that? I would go so far to say that its only merit is to show us how uneducated we have become, and how our concerns about social progress and improvement number few if any at all. We could speak at length about the last 8 years of the presidency, the efficiency (ha!) of the American automobile, the environment, or privatized/corporate medical care; it all would achive the same goal and make the same point: we keep doing the same things over and over again, and that does not make the world a better place. Repetition is not evolution, and history only repeats itself if those who make it are too stupid to make a difference. I'm all for judging things based on their "own merit in [their] own context," but there seems to be a lot of variance about what "context" applies to what things. In my humble opinion, art should be judged against the social climate within which it was created, against the history of art within the same medium, and -- at the very least -- against the culture from which it was born. No one, for example, should be diluted enough to judge an artist who -- perhaps tomorrow -- releases a line of portraits which are the same, yet very in color, without saying: "Warhol did this first, and the artist is not making any progress over Warhol." Perhaps the problem I have with the Fray, or most any musician you'll hear on a Clear Channel/Viacom station, is that their lack of originality puts the proverbial brakes on society and the propagation of new ideas. A few hundred years ago "pop" music was baroque, but somehow (thankfully) we've moved past that; society built upon it for a while and then moved on. My primary concern, when it comes to art, is the HOW of moving beyond that conception of "popular," but the problem with that is that the media has a formula for making money, and controls the taste of the masses through television, radio, and other advertising. If anyone ran around Europe ripping of Bach they were few and far between, but the society of today praises stagnation; thus we have nearly 15 years of Nirvana imitators, etc., to feed the pockets of the fat-cats who have been assembling bands and writing "hits" for over 30 years. These people are providing a serious disservice to society, much like American auto companies have been by making no gains in fuel economy, and instead catering to the average American's love of big, shiny, noisy things. However, it is not only the fat-cat, but the people who say "YES" to the fat-cat; consumers, and people who call themselves "artists" because Lou Pearlman gives them a set of instructions to follow in the recording studio and on the stage. Even THE PRESS is to blame for pandering and keeping society in the deep, dark BUSH its been in. So who's paying you, DH, to put The Fray or Love .45 on the cover of WestWord, exalting them as the new voice of Denver when, arguably, they've already been handed enough that they really didn't work that hard for at all, and when Denver HAS had its own UNIQUE (not The Fray) sound for many, many years? What really informs your decisions about who to put in the article inside SPIN magazine? A defunct band, a group of political visionaries from Ireland, and a bunch of hipsters who spend more time on their hair than their music dominated that 2-page spread; it sounds like a call for the same-old-same-old to me. Last November Americans voted for "change," but it took 8 years of hell and embarrassment before it happened. We need to decrease the amount of time it takes people to accept change and to see the merits of progression, and you, Dave Herrera, are in just the position to help society make such progress. The Fray have had enough. What are they going to do for us now? What are THEY going to do now that they have the stand? They had better freak everyone out; that's what The Beatles AND Zappa would have done ... and DID. (Let's stick with comparing the Fray to The Monkess, shall we?) Same to you, DH; freak us out, but not in the way that I freak out every time I hear "Cable Car" or "Runaround." The Fray is part of the problem, and maybe they aren't fully responsible -- I mean, most people don't have the intelligence to see through the new feudalist structure of society, and the Fray were just kids with a dream, really. Though a peon is still a tool, and any tool used for anything but improvement and progress is not only a complete waste, but is the enemy of life and the enemy of humanity's quest for the sublime. Thank you also for the stimulating dialogue.

• <strong>@ JP:</strong> While we can certainly debate the respective meritocracy of certain artists, it's an endless quarrel and, if you'll forgive me for saying so, a well worn harangue at this point, especially when it comes to the Fray. And, really, man, comparing Slim or Big Head Todd to the Fray is like pitting Zappa against the Beatles (or the Monkeys, if you please). Apples and astronauts, you know? Ultimately, tastes are entirely subjective, and some folks, like yourself, for example, clearly have more refined palates than others (namely pre-teen girls, I believe is how you put it). I'm of the opinion that all art and music should be judged based on its own merit in its own context. To that end, the Fray is a far sight better than many of its peers. Fact is, the outfit, as you've acknowledged yourself, plays pop music, and -- apologies in advance for insulting your intelligence -- pop music will always appeal to the masses. For better or worse. And, in the Fray's case, beyond the surface appeal of its pop (the inherent melodious attraction), the band benefits from the earnestness of its lyrics, the pathos of which resonate en masse thanks to the believability of a frontman who sings with palpable amount of emotion. Sans that, and the Fray makes for the most pleasantly benign dinner music. Or does it? While, by no means, am I saying they're virtuosos, in terms of musical talent, I'd argue that these players are far from the talentless hacks you're suggesting. Putting aside any rockist preconceptions you might have, listen closely to the guitar lines David Welsh is playing, and you'll hear a notable amount of Nels Cline's influence. And, for my money, Ben Wysocki, has a pretty acute sense of dynamics. At any rate, JP, as always, thanks for reading, for sharing your thoughts and for stimulating dialogue. p.s. For what it's worth, I wrote Ian Cooke up in <em>Spin</em> last fall.

• The Fray may be from Denver, but they are as much a "Denver band" as much as they are a real 'alternative' to shitty corporate music. How depressing that a band as watered-down, run-of-the-shitty-pop-music-mill, and wet behind the ears as The Fray would be THE band picked by some select and financially elite for their ability to be just bland and nondescript enough to make money off the uneducated and equally tasteless masses. I mean, at least Todd Mohr could play a mean guitar when his band was Denver's claim to fame, as much as I was not a fan of Big Head Todd; he had cut his teeth gigging for years, and at least had a palpable degree of talent. But now it has nothing to do with talent; these kids knew someone who knew someone else who could over-produce their sound and nerf-coat their blunted parts enough to sell MILLIONS! Who from Denver is really deserving of this kind of fame? Why can't it be someone like "Slim Cessna" and his Auto Club, who somehow still manage to sell-out New Year's Eve performances, and had started his career in Denver probably before those babies in The Fray were in high school? Who isn't Ian Cooke in Rolling Stone? He lived in a VAN that was smashed by a tree, has been playing in Denver for over 10 years (Uphollow), has a VERY unique sound, mountains of talent, and makes his rounds from private parties to some of Denver's biggest venues? Nope. Let's pick the kids who can barely beat out 4 chords, with 4-on-the-floor. God forbid we scare anyone with NEW IDEAS. The fact that The Fray are in Rolling Stone says everything about the state of the music industry, the state of America, and the state of the hollow consumerist world. We are indeed a largely artless and thoughtless culture. This is a sad day for Denver, for the Fray's old bassist who helped write "Cable Car," (BEFORE the producer stepped-in) and another sad, sad day in the world of corporate America. The only way The Fray would possibly be able to redeem themselves would be to release an experimental concept album along the lines of OK Computer or The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, but I have a feeling it's just going to be more hooky on-off drivel to play behind teen WB dramas and other mega-corporate TV time-wasters (read: LOST); I'm sure whoever is writing their songs now wouldn't want to alarm the label's shareholders. Why do we need to waste WestWord space on The Fray anymore? Are you all trying to shift your readership from real music fans to pre-teen girls? I remember when this magazine used to inform me about Real art and new ideas percolating in the Denver underground, and now ... well, why not just put The Fray on the cover one more time, maybe wearing corporate logo gear?

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