Knee-jerk reactions to the debate between Tom Tancredo and "Ask a Mexican" Gustavo Arellano

• @Ed Robinson Olvera-you better fact check very carefully before going toe to toe with Fretsward. I hope you are learning something from him!! @Nathen- you too, Nathen

• @gustavo-why don't you debate Fretsward?? You have become awfully quiet!

• Europe has far more to offer us European Americans these days than the US. It's time to seriously think about "going back" and leaving the Mexamericans to their Third World fate. Germany's economy is much stronger than the US's these days, and they are looking for people to fill up their underdeveloped Eastern part. The country is clean, beautiful, no gangs, no grafitti, and has less than one third the homicide rate of California, despite having twice the population. You can buy a 10-unit apartment house in Saxony for half of what I paid for my Mexifornian ranch house. What's more, there are no racist "affirmative action" laws against white people, and the excellent education system is free through university. For people who are not college material, there is an excellent vocational educational system that tracks you into high-paying blue collar jobs. Unlike California, Germany is not over-flooded with poverty-stricken, welfare-sucking, illiterate Third World immigrants, and what ones they do have are leaving. I can prove German ancestry through my Mom, so the minute the German government puts out the word that it wants us educated, taxpaying, law-abiding Euro-Americans to "come back," I'll be seriously looking at moving there.

• @Annoynymous Reciting from the Mexica Movement and Chicano Studies hate-text only exposes the dreck attempting to hide behind the curtain. The common denominator is psychobabble. "no one in this column has said that illegal immigration is OK." "spoke to Gustavo in Spanish and I can tell you he prefers to use English. Why? Because he grew up here!!! He is assimilated in the American culture." "So, just because Mexico sparsely populated the West, you justify our stealing half a million square miles of their land? Oh, but we paid a pittance to alleviate our guilt for doing so." Word of advice: Before suggesting my listening capacity is flawed, perhaps the start would be to listen to yourself, and look both ways before you made the dash to avoid la migra...

• It�s not a conundrum. Those like you are easy to identify. The parasite in the past was stealthy as it stole the life force from its host. �Self-induced petulance" is convenient shorthand for perfunctory motives, obscure decision-making processes, and stupefying logic. Ignoring our laws is intolerable, and as expected, squatters will feign struggle to authenticity and verisimilitude. Illegal and illicit in this regard, are of course, duplicitous. No matter how pathetic the excessive tearful sentimental dog and pony show is presented - even when anonymously...

• BTW, AKA Frets, I spoke to Gustavo in Spanish and I can tell you he prefers to use English. Why? Because he grew up here!!! He is assimilated in the American culture. So, your biased accusation falls flat. And no one in this column has said that illegal immigration is OK. You don't listen very well, do you.

• @(AKA "FRETS") So, just because Mexico sparsely populated the West, you justify our stealing half a million square miles of their land? Oh, but we paid a pittance to alleviate our guilt for doing so. What if you had a big ranch and a bunch of us came in and took it away from you -- just because we were stronger and more numerous? DOES MIGHT MAKE RIGHT?! Get a clue. Only Native Americans can feel justified for having their land effectively stolen from them.

• @Nancy. You missed the point of what I wrote. And, yes, everyone knows what a WASP is. Back East there are so many hyphenated Americans (and many religious traditions) that no one group has the numbers to lord over all the others. What is different in Colorado is that the white skinned, light haired, blue eyed, Christian folks have dominated the power structure since a long time ago. The discrimination against Hispanics has been long lasting, and they will tell you that it still exists today. You are unaware of this because of your Scotch Irish last name, and appearance. (Yes, your picture was in the article.) You need to study the history of Colorado and great discrimination of both blacks and Hispanics. And it would serve you to take Sociology 101 to learn about social dominance and oppression of the minority.

• @Frets: Rate meaning speed. I don't have the study handy but to give an example (don't quote my numbers) if you recruit in an area that has 1000 Latinos and 10,000 people overall, let's say you sign up 200 of the Latinos and 1000 of non-Latinos. You've signed up more of the non-Latinos but a greater proportion of the Latinos (20% vs 10%). I think the actual figures I saw were 20% of Latinos are vets and service personnel versus 9% of the general population. The recruiters spend a good amount of their budget targeting Latinos (in Spanish no less). I'm of the opinion that it's because they know they'll get more bang for their buck from that demographic. @Fred: Yes, there are Hispanic gangs in the military for "training". Just as there are African-American and White Supremicist, Nationalist, and Separatists. @Nancy: I'll see if I can find it. It's right near the beginning. Gustavo ennumerates all the things he and his family have done to assimilate and be good Americans. Tancredo responds they're taking advantage of benefits.

• @Nathen Legal Vs. Illegal... I haven't re-watched the debate. I'll take your word on what you heard and assume I thought I heard something maybe I didn't hear. I do not think an Irish-American singing and Irish ballad or an Italian-American waving an Italian flag on Columbus Day is any different than a Mexican-American waving a Mexican flag in a Cinco de Mayo parade. I would not say that a Mexican-American serving in uniform and saluting the American flag as a proud American is "not assimilating" or is "maintaining allegiance" to their mother country, and only "taking advantage of the benefits" of the US and did not hear Tancredo say that. Can you point me to where in the debate you heard him say that (e.g. 20 minutes in) If one refuses to learn English and speak in English (if they do know the language), when in public, then in my opinion they are not attempting to assimilate.

• @Anonymous Do you even know what WASP stands for? White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. When you say the majority of people back East are of an ethnic background as compared to Colorado, what exactly does that mean? There are more Italians, more Irish, more Polish, more what than there are in Colorado? Aren't we all part of some ethnic background? I don't doubt that some Mexican-Americans have suffered. Other than the British, can you name a group whose ancestry hasn't suffered? Did you know John F. Kennedy was the first non-WASP and only Catholic president we've ever had?

• @ Fred Nicely said. I concur...

• BTW, Gustavo, it's patently obvious you haven't assimilated. If you ever do, it'll be easy to tell - that'll be the day your column is called "Ask an American"...

• @Nathen: "To enumerate some facts Tom says are unenumerable, immigrant Latino/as serve in the military at a greater rate than other Americans. Latinas more than Latinos. How can that be the case if "immigrants don't cut allegiance to their mother country"? It's one thing to pledge allegiance. It's another to put your money where your mouth is and put your life on the line for the country you're giving your allegiance to." Nathen, I don't doubt that many hispanics serve honorably in the US armed forces - particularly the legal ones. But not all of them are so noble. I have it straight from a close friend who's been a cop (gang specialist, in three major cities) that an alarming number of hispanic gang members join the US military, receive basic and advanced combat and specialty training, then come back and train all their fellow gang bangers in military ops. These gangs are of Mexican and Central American origin, including the brutal MS-13. The cops are quite worried about this (much more concerned about Hispanics in the military than about Muslims in the military!) and they are hoping that the battle the gangs are training for never comes, while preparing for the day it does. (Hoping naively, if you ask me, and I'm glad they're preparing.) As a Denver native, I've come to know a good number of Mexican families over the years, mostly through businesses I patronize. The vast majority of them detest illegals, largely because THEY are the ones hurt most hurt by illegal immigration (guilt by association, thanks to the left's false claims that all Mexicans march in lockstep on this issue). Gustavo - It's not lost on anyone that your family came here illegally, then took advantage of all America has to offer. You did likewise, and then turned on this country. I wouldn't bet money on whether you understand where you're taking things or not, although I suspect you do. If you're successful in your efforts, all you will have accomplished in life is to turn America into the same kind of hell hole your own parents fled. If he's any kind of father, I'm sure yours has told you that you shouldn't burn down your own house while you're in it, and I suspect he still hopes that you'll grow up someday. So do we. After Reconquista, when you've destroyed the economy and the welfare system has utterly collapsed, all your illegal buddies will be without any financial assistance, health care and most importantly, sympathy. (Yes, Gustave, even a big part of the left will turn on you someday, when they finally grasp that there's no free lunch and figure out that you're who's eating theirs...) I wonder, have you thought ahead that far? When that day dawns, which country are you invading next? I'll be watching, so I can short their markets and currency and get back a bit of what you've stolen. Cheers.

• @ Nathen (and my apologies for the previous spelling. Unintentional). Rate as in certain quantity or amount, and greater as in unusually or comparatively large in size or dimensions? Any way you attempt to offer the lipsticked pig - its still lipstick on a pig. How can the numbers be greater when they make up nearly 8% of the military? Sounds like fuzzy math. Wrong again man. I am Niits�pi. I don't know how you concluded we are the greatest recruitment. Blackfoot, Piegan/Piikani, Kainai, and Siksikawa make up less than the 2.2% (others). A lot less. 74.% Whites 14.5% Blacks 7.7% Hispanics 2.0% Asians 2.2% Others

• @ Ed Robinson Olvera On one side of the coin you mention coming to the U.S. was akin to traveling to another planet - on the other, references from La Raza nation refers to the Southwest as lands the U.S. stole. In the early years of the U.S. 1790 to 1849, immigration was only 4,000 people a year. Nearly all population growth up to 1830 was internal; about 98.5% of the population was native-born. By 1850, this had shifted to about 90% native-born. In 1848, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hildago concluded the war with the new Mexican Republic, extending US citizenship to approximately 7,000 Mexican residents of the New Mexico territory and 900 going to California. In the American - Mexican War, the U.S. occupied Mexico City and forced the newly founded Mexican Republic to give up its northern territories, including what later became Arizona. The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848) specified that the sum of $15 million US dollars in compensation be paid to the newly formed Mexico. Arizona was recognized as Confederate Territory by presidential proclamation on February 12, 1862. This is the first official use of the name. Until the latter half of the 19th century, almost all of the Southwest remained sparsely settled. At the time of Arizona�s acquisition by the U.S. in 1848, fewer than 100 people of Hispanic origin lived there. The argument is just like claiming ownership of property on the Moon. I'd rather wrap myself in the American flag than the Mexican one (which flies here at our behest). No, we can't go back to "Leave it to Beaver," but we cannot allow "Invasion of the Day Worker" either. If you go to the U.S. Department of State info, it says currently around 500,000 Americans currently reside in Mexico. The Lake Chapala area of the state of Jalisco as a retirement-living option for foreigners claims that 200,000 Americans live there. The bulk are people who have frauded the country, and on certain days of the month turn small towns with populations of less than 100 into scam-check postal centers with 30,000 P.O. Boxes. Wrong, todays immigrants come here to become Americans. Illegal aliens come here to steal. Yes, Latinos have more than proved themselves to this country as you say. No other racial group in the history of the modern world have cost a country and its people $140+ billion dollars per year, disregard our laws, reduced becoming an American through birthright theft to the lowest common denominator, and have cheapened the value of citizenship to a matter of getting over a fence. Not the bottom line: 5,778 Americans have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since the launch of Operation Enduring Freedom (Afghanistan) and Operation Iraqi Freedom (Iraq). Whites account for 75.2% of combat casualties, Blacks 10.4% and Hispanics 9% of combat casualties. The Medal of Honor is the military's rare gem - and no, Hispanics have no higher numbers in any combat category. Most are law-abiding? You must be referring to Mexican law. Tax payers? Sales tax is not Income tax. You throw in the racial jab at Blacks, but Americans who dissent are the racists. Right? And lastly, the African presence in Mexico is not so much denied as it is obscured. Most Mexicans and Mexican Americans have historically been unaware of - that they, like other Latinos, have not only Spanish blood, but African blood as well...

• @Frets: I didn't say there are more in service, I said the rate is greater. I.e. of a given population recruiters will sign up a higher % of the Latinos than of the mainstream population. The greatest recruitment rate is among Native Americans.

• Frets Ward owns.

• Frets Ward, that's an amazingly detailed take. We're going to make it our longest Comment of the Day to date. Congrats, and thanks for reading.

• @Nathen I typed a long response to one of you posts, but it's not showing up. ARGH! Maybe I typed the wrong 'secret word' when submitted and unfortunately did not save what I posted.

• @Anonymous I'm sorry you have such a cynical attitude. And why is it that you will not use your real name?

• @ Nathan Now, as an officer in the military, we are tired of your non-stop Mexican Tourist Board nonsense. Latinos comprise of nearly 7% of the military. Not quite the dominance you refer to. Is this the same fuzzy math that tells us when an election is nearing that the mythical Hispanic vote will punish those who don't capitulate to La Raza? It's one thing to be proud, however, I find it perplexing that for all you contribute to those of us who'd be lost without your assistance, why in the hell are you not putting your lives on the line for Mexico. With what you create for us, imagine what Mexico could be? I won't hold my breath for an answer, or the truth. I surmise, psychobabble is the new stupefying logic. Next, you'll bleat "the workers" pick our crops, then you'll attempt to justify Americans saving 2 cents on fruits and vegetables because what you thought was 90% is actually 2% of illegal aliens doing this work. Knowing the truth is an entirely separate matter. Right?

• @Ed Robinson Olvera No, typical soundbite speak from a racist Latino. You will feign you don't get it. You haven't seen bombardment yet. Any American could opine enough to fill a novel about the malady that is Mexico, and its people. Complex problem my ass. It's illegal versus legal, right versus wrong, respect versus disrespect - you do not get to decide because they come from where you do. And you have the temerity to call me biased? I would rather die a conservative anyday than a parasite. How about Mexico dealing with it? Why do Americans have to pick up the tab? No, it serves the Hispanic/Latino interest. Believe me, you're not one of us. Speaking of historical facts, over 600,000 men and women gave their lives toward the birth and defense of the United States of America. From coast-to-coast and border-to-border the overwhelming majority of our population loves this country, its Constitution, its freedoms, and its beautiful flag. There are, however, tens of millions of illegal aliens here in the U.S. who have no love or regard for America. They hate the U.S. government, the country, and the American people. These people have invaded our country. Its not enough that the US allowed industry to codify and build in Mexico. We have to deal with a non-stop population larger than that of Tallahassee, FL coming across the border monthly - people who have discarded nearly 300 million tons of trash and humen waste in our national border parks on their way in; people who demand I speak their language; people who are stealing American IDs and Social Security numbers; people who are bankrupting state budgets and taxpayers; people who are turning entire cities and neighborhoods into Tijuana�s, where half the store signs advertise llanteras usadas; people who are killing American citizens at the rate of 39 per day through murder, drunk driving, etc; people who expect and demand their kids to be taught in Spanish, and don�t care what we Americans think (it continues with in-state tuition); people who drive without licenses, or insurance, or set enough aside to cover their liabilities; people who use our expensive hospital system and emergency rooms as their cold and sniffle clinics. Your charge of my volume is the classic hypothetical syllogism. Like that K.D. Lang song: "Constant Conniving?" While millions of illegal aliens from Mexican are invading our country, the Mexican military, and the Mexican Federal Police are assisting by diversionary activity. There has been a series of incidents where the Mexican military or Federal Police invaded U.S. territory and fired on Border Patrol officers. What's behind this massive, unopposed invasion of tens of millions of illegal aliens into the country? The Mexican government, the National Council of La Raza, MEChA, LULAC, the Catholic Church, treasonous congressmen illegally elected to office, and anchor babies loyal to the Mexican reconquista agenda are efficacious in this onslaught for dominant status. The constitution of the parasites. The conquest of Aztlan. All one has to do is browse the California's School District's Chicano Studies textbook, "The Mexican American Heritage." On page 84 there it shows a redrawn map of Mexico and the U.S., showing Mexico with most of the territory, all of it taken back from the America (without a receipt). On page 107, it says "Latinos are now realizing that the power to control Aztlan may once again be in their hands." The majority of illegal aliens are going to the mostly sanctuary Southwest states of California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado, Texas, Utah and Nevada. Mexicans call the seven states Aztlan, which is the territory ceded to the US by the Republic of Mexico as part of the Treaty of Guadeloupe Hidalgo of 1848, after the U.S./Mexican War. The overall plan, however, is to create a massive Mexican population in the U.S. and achieve total Mexican voting superiority, answerable only to Mexico City, and their racist agenda. Today, nearly 9 million Mexicans (legal and illegal) are registered to vote in the U.S., 10 million Mexican anchor babies are approaching voting age, and an additional 20+ million illegal aliens are awaiting scam - amnesty 2.0 so that they too can seek revenge. The big question is how many of those who are, or will, register to vote American citizens? To register to vote one must be a citizen of the United States. There in lies the conundrum. Now Mexico is using massive illegal immigration to control American politics and policies and eventually control the entire U.S. They plan on winning at the ballot box - legally and illegally - without firing a shot. Children fraudulently born in the U.S. to illegal aliens and guest workers are U.S. citizens and can vote when they turn 18. Former Housing and Urban Development Secretary, Henry Cisneros - (a Bill Clinton appointee) - said before a Hispanic audience: "As goes the Latino population will go the state of California, and as goes the state of California will go the United States of America. My friends, the stakes are big. This a fight worth making." Be careful what you wish for... The former president of Mexico, Ernesto Zedillo, went before a group of illegals in Chicago and said, "I have proudly affirmed that the Mexican nation extends beyond the territory enclosed by its borders, and that Mexican migrants are an important, a very important part of it." The United States of America is a nation governed by laws, and no one is supposed to be above the law. Apparently this does not include the governing bodies in many cities, counties, and states - who have taken an oath to uphold the laws and Constitution of the U.S. - who are showing favoritism toward criminals at large by giving aid and comfort, at taxpayers expense, to the flood of Mexicans who have crossed our border illegally. No country can be great if its citizens are taught to look the other way while others wipe their feet on its laws and mock its national sovereignty. The time has come to question the patriotism of the politicians and media who refuse to tell the American people the truth, and what is happening on the border, and why it is happening - which is a threat to our national security and our national interest. Mexicans who have entered the U.S. illegally have violated Federal law. They are criminals. It makes no difference if they smile. Pro-illegal alien activists and groups in the U.S. are Anti-American. The arrogant in-your-face attitude regarding the eventual takeover of Republic del Norte (Aztlan) will come to an end soon. Millions upon millions of angry American men waiting for the bell to ring will make certain we remain the United States of America. We will not lose our country to La Raza...

• @Nancy McKiernan -- I grew up in the NYC area also. Yes, the various ethnic groups "SHARED" their culture, as you put it. Why? Because the majority of the people back East are of an ethnic background, so the WASP's haven't dominated for a long time. Here in the Southwest, the WASP's (Anglos, whites) have dominated the power structure. Mexican-Americans have LONG suffered from prejudice and discrimination; for centuries! THAT's the big difference here from the East coast. Back East, one is just an Italian, or Polish, or Irish, or whatever. Here the Latino is a MINORITY and has been treated as such. That's why they are not "sharing" as much as you and Tancredo would want. It will happen eventually, but will take time.

• Good point, Nathan, about Tancredo's confused position on "cutting allegiance". When people came from Europe in the 1800's, it was like traveling to another planet; people did not expect to ever return. Mexico and Central America is different in that today in the 21st Century it's comparatively easy to go back and forth and maintain family and cultural connections. So, of course, the cultural "allegiance" thing is very different today, and one can say it is even "weaker". Tancredo is longing for a return to a simplistic, naive, "wrap yourself in the flag" "loyalty". We can't go back to 'Leave It to Beaver' days. "Allegiance" goes the other direction, too. There's an increasing trend of ex-pat Americans. Over one million Americans live full-time in Mexico alone! And that's not just retired folks. Today's immigrants, legal or not, come here for economic reasons and/or to reunite with family. Bottom line: Latinos have more than proved themselves to this country. They have a higher percentage of battlefield casualties and Medal of Honor winners, etc. Most are law-abiding, tax paying, contributing. The criminals (and blacks) you see in the news are the exception.

• @Nancy: I've rewatched the debate a couple of times to see if I missed an answer to the question "what do immigrants have to do to be assimilated?" On this point, Tancredo does not distinguish between legal and illegal. Gustavo pointed out to him that on the economic level most people can agree with Tom. It's when he says the immigrants of today (legal and illegal) do not acculurate that the support goes out the window. Upon rewatching, the only thing I can see Tom saying is "cutting allegiance" to the mother country. His only proof that immigrants are not cutting allegiance is because the Mexican government encourages them not to. Who says that government succeeds? Tom even says you can't enumerate facts on that point. So, my question stands. Why is someone of Irish descent singing ballads about "the old country" or an Italian waving the Italian flag on Columbus Day all acceptable while they perform their American civic duties, but a Mexican-American serving in uniform and saluting the American flag as a proud American is "not assimilating", "maintaining allegiance" to their mother country, and only "taking advantage of the benefits" of the US as Tancredo claims? If they were "maintaining allegiance", they'd be singing the Mexican anthem in English not celebrating this country by singing the US anthem in Spanish. To enumerate some facts Tom says are unenumerable, immigrant Latino/as serve in the military at a greater rate than other Americans. Latinas more than Latinos. How can that be the case if "immigrants don't cut allegiance to their mother country"? It's one thing to pledge allegiance. It's another to put your money where your mouth is and put your life on the line for the country you're giving your allegiance to. Latinos and Mexicans (immigrants and not) also make up a significant (up to half in one report I saw) of ICE! Where are all these immigrants who give allegiance to the US so much less than those born here?

• @Nathen I contend that it is you, not Tancredo, who missed the boat. Tancredo made it perfectly clear that he sees a big difference between illegal immigrants and legal immigrants, regardless of where they come from. He acknowledged all those, who like his own ancestors, came to the United States for a better life and have contributed great things to society and our country. As far as celebrating the Feast of St. Rocco, I think you missed Tancredo's point here too. I think most of us would agree that we enjoy a melting pot of various different cultures and ethnic groups. It's natural that people coming over from other countries would bond with and form mini-communities with those from the same country or origin. Hence, the various neighborhoods in NY City - Italian, Irish, Jewish, Polish, etc. Having grown up in the NY/NJ area, I witnessed various groups SHARING their culture with one another, while all being proud Americans and pledging allegiance, from their hearts and in their actions, to America, above their country of origin. I think this is the point Tancredo was trying to make.

• @Pauline Exactly! Gustavo seems to speak out of both sides of his mouth. He claims to have assimilated, yet brags about breaking our laws and speaks of essentially living in Mexico inside the United States. He scoffed at Tancredo's suggestion of confronting Big Business to stop not only illegal immigration, but exploitation of workers. In his eyes it seems, 'that's just the way big business works'. Perhaps because of his Mexican roots, he has accepted not having a voice against government - WHEN IT'S CONVENIENT FOR HIM. Tancredo doesn't like or accept workers being exploited. Gustavo says 'that's just the way it is' and his supporters applaud him? Is this because he was stumped and couldn't come up with a good counter? Or could it be a lower wage works for Gustavo and illegals, because they are not paying taxes or auto insurance or health insurance, etc., etc. and when benefits, such as free health care are factored in, their net income might actually be higher than those who are here legally?

• It may have been their land to begin with but then many countries used to be owned by others so what's the point? Does this mean they do want to Reconquer? Take back what "WAS" theirs? If so, this position completely contradicts what Gustavo said, that "Reconquistador" is not a movement to recaputre America-it is instead "just a word". The arguments are contradictory. Either they like capitalism or they are trying to Reconquer America. Which is it? If a person comes here, by whatever means possible (as in Gustavo's fathers case-crawling thru a sewer, getting driven thru the hot desert in the trunk of a car. Quite an effort!) then... 1) They want the capitalist opporutnity America offers (in which case how could they HATE capitalism?) Or 2) They are trying to Reconquer.(Which Gustavo adamantly denies) If they are successful at Reconquering then they will eventually turn America back into exactly what they worked so hard to leave.

• @Frets Ward Typical response from a biased conservative. First, they reply with an insult, then they bombard you with a mountain of words, as if volume makes right. If you would re-read my 2 posts, I NEVER said illegal immigration is OK! I stated that it's a complex problem, due to many unique historical facts. Why do you think the Power Elite (mostly Republicans, rich conservative, big corporations, special interests, the super-rich) all have ignored dealing with this? It's because it serves their economic special interests. It doesn't serve the best interests of the Middle Class, who are most of us. Wake up and smell the coffee.

• Being of Apache descent I can state uneqvivovally that we have been having an immigration problem since the Being of Apache descent I can state unequivocally that we have been having an immigration problem since the arrival of thieving hordes who came in wagon trains lusting for gold, bringing their dread diseases. This land has never been the same. These illegals now wish to dictate to others as to who can come and who can't. Before the arrival of the thieving hordes native people roamed freely without imposed borders. We still do this to some extent as we maintain our ties with our tribal cousins from south of the imposed frontier. Those who hate Mexican people also hate us. If they could they would try to have us deported as well.

• @Gustavo re: Gary K's comment... You aren't much for defending your point with any substance are you? I think that is the biggest joke of all.

• @Jan...KUDO's. You nailed it. @Gustavo...your lack of response and come back on Jan's comment simply "makes" Jan's case moreover, not that it needed any help from you anyway. @Hanna...I must wonder who pays for your education? If you are, you should know you are getting ripped off. If your parents are paying, don't show them your report card! @Marla and @Pauline..on capitalism...law breakers don't care about capitalism. They think this was there land to begin with. They have no respect for our laws, assimilation. And why the hell not...it's better here than what they got. What they don't get is that if they come and don't assimulate, and we continue to allow them, we are just letting them trash our own country and sooner or later, we will be heading up North with them. @Nathan..."Social Worldview?" Are you kidding me? This is not a social world issue. This is not a humanitarian war. This is about borders, language, culture, and LAW! This is about our country, America, and salvaging culture, freedoms, liberties, and opportunities for our children and future generations. Do you attend the same classes as @Hanna?

• @Ed Robinson Olvera Are you out of your mind? In 1891, the Immigration and Naturalization Service was established to monitor incoming legal immigrants (not illegal aliens). The government Ellis Island inspection station was set up in 1882, and operated until 1954. Before the �flood� which occurred in the 1870s was a period called �old� immigration. Old immigrants were mostly from Western Europe � especially Britain, Germany, Ireland and Scandinavia. In 1875, federal law was passed prohibiting entry of illegal aliens, convicts and prostitutes. No quotas were initially set for Mexico because of the ongoing Mexican Revolution. In 1900, when the US population was 76 million, there were about 300,000 Hispanics. 1924 led to the National Origins Act further reduced quotas. Almost all Asians were barred from entering the country. Immigration was reduced further to 160,000 a year, and in 1929, immigration was cut to 157,000 and quotas were again reset based on national origins. The rationale was that these laws would ensure the existing ethnic composition of the country, and assimilate the 15 million who had entered the previous forty years. Edward H. Dowell, VP of the California Federation of Labor, testified before the U.S. Senate Committee on Immigration in February, 1928 about the burden of the unrestricted flow of Mexicans on the state�s taxpayers, prisons, hospitals and American workers� wages. He estimated that while 67,000 Mexicans entered the U.S. legally, many times that number entered illegally. In April, 1926, many of the ranch workers in California�s Imperial Valley entered the U.S. illegally without passing the (then) literacy test and did not pay the $18 entrance fee. In 1929, the U.S. House Immigration Committee heard testimony from government officials about problems at the border with Mexico, including steps that were taken to eliminate the �visa mill� at Juarez, where �the most lax conditions imaginable� were found. After the stock market crash in 1929, the U.S. tightened visa rules which considerably reduced Mexican illegal immigration. Local, state and federal government officials debated what to do with those already here. Some Mexicans self-deported voluntarily, or under pressure from local welfare officials. Others were deported. Eventually between 900,000 to 1,700,000 Mexicans left the United States between 1929 and 1939. This was due to deportation, as well as the threat of deportation. Repatriation began during President Hoover�s administration, and reached its peak in the 1930s. It applied to all illegal alien groups. Hoover did not like the fact they were taking jobs from Americans, and endorsed a vigorous effort to reduce illegal aliens. In 1950, The LA Times reported that 41,000 Mexican illegals had �flooded across the US border during April. The report complained about the overworked, understaffed Border Patrol and �endless waves, unprecedented in this nation�s history.� The argument about jobs �Americans won�t do� was recited by the liberals protecting the criminals, while authorities stressed the need to enforce the law. Enter President Eisenhower. In his first term, illegal alien crossings had grown to over 1 million. This massive illegal workforce had devastating impacts on the wages of Americans. Concerned about corruption and the profits from the result of illegal labor, Eisenhower took decisive action. He appointed General Joseph Swing in 1954 as head of the INS. �Operation Wetback� was launched shortly after. With a force of 1,075 Border Patrol agents, hundreds of thousands of illegal aliens were caught and sent back to Mexico. Hundreds of thousands more self-deported. Illegal immigration dropped 95% by the end of the decade. In the following decades, and fast forward to today, Mexico has been the primary source country of illegal immigration. Illegal aliens have also frauded birthright citizenship (�anchor babies�) to circumvent U.S. immigration laws and gain permanent residency, and to push for citizenship. This is a misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution that grants U.S. citizenship on those born on American soil, including children of illegal aliens. Illegal immigrants know that US immigration authorities will likely not deport them if they have a child who is an American (and a bonus who qualifies for taxpayer-funded benefits). Today, over 1 million immigrants enter the US legally per year, while 2.5 million illegal aliens enter the country annually. Realistic numbers put illegal aliens currently residing in the US at 22-42 million. Liberals and La Raza continue to dumb down the numbers at a constant 12 million, which is fuzzy math and subterfuge considering 10 million entering in 2005 alone. California has more illegals than any other state (9 million, probability, the 12 million always referred to). Texas, Florida and New York are states that have enormous numbers of illegals, although every state is now impacted, and paying a huge price. All Americans feel the negative impact of illegal immigration, as with the jaw-dropping number of bankrupted hospitals, overcrowded schools, and increased crime. Taxpayers pay out of the ass for it, illustrating the high cost of �cheap labor� for unscrupulous employers and their political allies who for decades have constantly watered down immigration laws. The cost is insurmountable. Despite majority American opposition to illegal immigration and amnesty, open border advocates, the 5th column media, the Mexican government, La Raza, LULAC, the Catholic Church, Hispanic organizations, and Congressional traitors on both sides of the same aisle press President Obama to pass yet another mass amnesty for illegal aliens. These special interest groups, the Hispanic/Latino agenda and their allies in the mainstream media continually attempt to re-frame the debate away from the core issues (illegality, sovereignty, overpopulation, fiscal costs), and redefine the terms used in the debate. Americans angry about the illegal alien tsunami are also aware that pro-illegal alien advocates conjure up the false choice between mass deportation or mass amnesty. They say that we can�t �round up and deport 12 million people.� We have to provide them with a �pathway to citizenship.� �We didn�t cross the border, the border crossed us.� The common sense approach to remedy this menace is �Attrition Through Enforcement.� When our existing immigration laws are willfully enforced, jobs and goodies are cut off, illegal aliens will return to their home country. This is the only way if we are to remain a country at all�

• Tancredo made excellent points on the economic principles of immigration, and I thought Arellano fell short in responding to the larger questions, including assimilation. In particular, it's highly doubtful illegals (from any country) are producing three college grads as a rule, rather than the exception, as he adamantly claimed.

• Pauline- Notice how no one is wiling to take that one on? It's because it exposes the lunacy of the pro-illegal whackjobs. Instead we get the usual race card being played, yawn. How about it Gustavo? How about another well thought out and poignant response like "Garry: Actually, your analysis of my position is the bigger joke--gracias for the laugh!"

• Antonio: Spaniards took the land from my people, not yours, and don't try to align yourselves with Native Americans, we don't want you. Then the European settlers fought with you and took it from you. Mexicans are not Native Americans, you are Spanish and Mayan. The whites owe you nothing.

• If someone hates capitalism so much and thinks its bad, corrupt and Americans are racists why would anyone want to come here let alone work so hard to do so?

• The debate was skewed from the beginning. Arellano was arguing that Mexican immigrants are acculturating and are thus good "Americans." Of course Tancredo is a racist although he believes he is not. In fact the United States stole land from Mexico through war. Thus, the people who come here have a right to their culture and language without interference. It is the least the United States can do. If Whites advocate respecting the law, they have a lot to make up for.

• Garry: Actually, your analysis of my position is the bigger joke--gracias for the laugh!

• Anytime I witness someone such as Tom above make cracks about the Statue of Liberty I want to Gag! The statue was a gift from France and is symbolic of how America was built and what we inspire in the hearts of men. It was neither built, given, nor erected to be a permanant symbol that anyone who can sneak into this country illegally, or obtain anchor baby status through a current flaw in the 14th Amendment is therefore obliged to the rights of American Citizenship. Last night it was pointed out that approximately 125,000 people were granted citizenship last month through immigration proceedings - that number would indicate to me that the symbolic meaning of the Statue of Liberty is alive and well. Anyone who wishes to pervert that meaning because Illegal Aliens are not given that same status only make themselves to look like a fool! On a separate note, last night, Gustavos literally bragging and joking about his American Citizenship which resulted from anchor baby status and his bragging about supporting the "Dream Act" showed his true colors. He has no respect for the rule of law in this country. It is one big joke to him!

• Gustavo doesn't get it or is lying when he stated, �In this family of Mexicans, who still basically live in Mexico in the United States." If they still basically lived like if they're in Mexico then his dad would try to Emigrate, but where to, since the pro-illegals are turning the USA into another Mexico, which is corrupt as always. So in the end Gustavo doesn't see that his arguments support Tancredo's stand against illegal immigration. Gustavo also pointed out that his once illegal dad who has benefited from the USA is now against Illegal Immigration. Gustavo's dad has seen the light. What's wrong with Gustavo? Leftist brainwashing, perhaps.

• Good points, Nathan, about Tancredo's double standard, near-sightedness about the Latino heritage vs. the Italian heritage. Much of my childhood was back East near NYC, and I can assure you that the Italian-American community there is quite large, active and politically strong. And they definitely have not forgotten their proud ancestry. Marriage outside of their own cultural community is generally frowned upon by many members. It seems to me that Tom is lacking awareness of his own prejudice. All immigrant groups eventually get "assimilated". American culture is overwhelming, like a swimming pool, you can't jump in without getting wet. By the 3rd generation, most of the children don't even speak any Spanish anymore. And that's a fact. P.S. Interestingly, the late 1890's had a HIGHER percentage of foreign born persons than today's percentage, even including illegals.

• Hanna Johnson- "But this is about white people, scared they are less of the majority than they used to be." What a fucking stupid statement.

• As usual, Tancredo has sound economic arguments but completely misses the boat on his social worldview. He was met with outright laughter when he said polls showed he had a full half of Hispanics supporting him. He couldn't understand why that would be funny. Maybe he forgot he just lost an election in which only 10% of (legal citizen) Hispanic voters supported him. As others have noted, his side of the debate was incongruous if not outright hypocritical. Gusatavo asked him "what do immigrants [legal or illegal] need to do to be 'assimilated'?" A question Tancredo never gave a straight answer to. Gustavo noted how many immigrants learn the language, serve this great country in the military, get an education, and become productive citizens. Tancredo dismissed these actions as "taking advantage of the country's benefits" and vaguely referred to "cutting ties with their country of origin". HOWEVER, Tancredo defended his own family's celebration of the Feast of St. Rocco and other Italian-American traditions as a "natural gravitation of people of similar background". Where does he draw the line? Italians can have St. Rocco, but Mexicans can't have El Virgen? There can be a Little Italy, but not a Santa Fe Arts District? Authors and popular culture can celebrate the immigration story of Italian-Americans, but Su Teatro cannot celebrate the US grown art and culture of Chicanos/Latinos/Hispanos in the Southwest for 400 years that have been present in America before there was an America? How is celebration of East Coast Italian slang "assimilated" into American culture, but a single word of Spanish is "invasion"? Tancredo lost the audience when he made the same mistake as so many on this issue. That any celebration of cultural background and heritage equates to "illegal" and the only way to not be seen as "pro-illegal" is to eschew anything related to one's ancestral homeland. The greatest round of disdain from the audience came from his statement that if immigrants truly assimilated the debate wouldn't be taking place because "[Su Teatro] would be empty." Would he have made the same statement at a Sons of Italy hall?

• Tom, you are too late to close the border. The Mexico-US border was virtually non-existant up until the early 1900's -- no border patrol, no customs inspection, no immigration control. People traveled north and south for centuries. The entire Southwestern states (~500,000 square miles, big as Alaska) belonged to Spain, then Mexico, up until 1848, when the US forced Mexico to sell at a pittance. Most whites of long residence in the Southwest have Latino relatives, even your buddy George W. Bush. Trying to close the border is too simplistic for a complex historical problem that every administration has avoided.

• It is interesting to read the arguments of pro-ILLEGAL immigration advocates. They use a "straw man" by assuming that individuals who are anti-ILLEGAL immigration are anti-LEGAL immigration. They use this fallacious technique against people who are pro-LEGAL immigration, yet anti-ILLEGAL immigration, because it much easier to win the debate. However, it is deceptive and most intelligent people see through it.

• Having lost a family member because of the illegal alien invasion, I agree with those who also lost loved ones ie Roy Tranchant of VA, who eloquently says "I now know what �sanctuary city� means, as Virginia Beach is accused of being, more than most ever will. It worries me that we would even consider giving 12 million plus foreigners legal rights to Social Security, health care, and schooling in a time of a $14 trillion national debt. I don�t believe the current system can process this many people and verify that some are not criminals or terrorists. So, while securing the borders, America must somehow identify everyone using a certifiable national system without comprising constitutional rights. I don�t feel violated when an official checks my driver�s license or passport. It sure beats the funeral procession that I was part of." That sums it up for me." Further, Tancredo is a former Congressman who represented American citizens. The anchor baby represents illegal alien lawbreakers - there is a difference how one earns their salary! We have millions of American citizens out of work and the anchor baby wants to give them citizenship and let more enter. I think not!

• I have to admit that Tancredo held his own and didn't come off as quite the ignoramus I anticipated. A hypocrite, yes, but not a stupid one, although blithely saying "I don't care about American business owners," using a Bushism like "oxeomoronic," and showing a clear disdain for academia did make me think he's not the brightest bulb on the tree. I thought Arellano held back, was almost too polite. The whole debate was really quite civilized. It was nice to hear people intelligently discussing such a contentious topic. Anyone else think we'll be seeing some sort of Tancredo / Palin ticket in 2012? Gracias, Westword!

• Beginning in the mid-1970's, I spent countless happy hours listening to my son's great-grandmother Angie Mion (nee Angelina Segrillo) tell tales of growing up in Southwest Colorado as one of the daughters of sharecropper immigrants from Northern Italy. She gave me a view onto a lost world, and a most intriguing one. Many of the stories were humorous, but she would darken when speaking of the stigma of "having an 'o' at the end of your name." In the intervening years, I came to understand that Italian-Americans were the most discriminated-against minority in the history of Colorado. Up to the present times, that is. The fact has been confirmed by state historians over the years. And so, I found it interesting to hear Tom Tancredo aver at the recent El Centro Su Teatro conversation between Tancredo and Gustavo Arellano, that if Italians were coming from our own border, you can bet that there would be a similar backlash against Italian immigrants. Well, of course there was a backlash, often a violent one, against Italian-Americans, for the very same reason such attacks against Latino immigrants and their heirs abound today, namely a sense of supremacy and discrimination against "the other." Tancredo and his fellow recently-minted Nativists have assimilated, alright, so much so that they adopt willingly, though not admitting it, the one phrase that epitomizes such bullies at every point in our history: "Pull up the ladder - I'm on!"

• One of the best points that Tancredo made was that illegal immigration is unfair to the individuals who do it legally. Arellano's response: NADA. Also, Arellano really came across as a clown.

• I thought the debate was very good. Wish it could have gone on for twice the time. The audience was well-mannered beyond expectation. (Except for the twitchy guy next to me that kept looking around like he was CFBI, SS or something.) Tancredo was passionate and articulate if not conceptually inconsistent. Arellano was just as passionate and articulate�even restrained as I'm sure he could have used that razor-sharp wit to greater extent given the environment�but he undermined his own credibility with the naive disbelief that cartel dollars might not be be a wee bit influential north of the border. Apenas diciendo.

• I'm still waiting to hear from Tom on what EXACTLY makes me an American.

• HeyTom build your wall all the way to the Canadian border,and while your at it pull down that liberty statue in NYC because it's no longer meaningful.

• This just goes to show.ALL white people are anchor babies.You were the original theives/terrorists.and capitolism doesnt work.Thats why all the racist people are blaming obama now.Because its ok when a white man gives money to big business to help capitolism but bad when a black man does. Not to mention the reason why mexicans are taking away americans jobs(just like the India, China, and the Phillipines)is because of capitolism.If you supposed pro capitolists americans are so backing of it.Then illegal immigration is great for it. Because most business use foreign labor before they would hire a pro capitolist anyway. So why don't you just promote better capitolism and learn to use foreign labor like the big corrupt companies and politians you support so well. Thank you for being hipocrits.

• Jan: Gracias for the love! Harold: You wish it was seeded--where were you?

• Hey Marla- the conversation was 99.9% about Mexico. Mexico is a Federal Republic just like Germany. It is not a Socialist country. Do your homework before making assumptions. Our post office and fire departments are both socialist models- I like them, and so did everyone else (fire department) especially on/after 9-11. By the way- you can tell the fire department is socialist by the color of their uniforms, so if you see red, be scared because that is what some politicians want you feel. Like Tancredo, fear is his tool to make people stop thinking. Tancredo uses fear, issues of immigration and politics as a way to make a living . . . think about it Jan.

• Westword: Any chance you'll put the video online for those unable to watch it live?

• I wouldnt walk across the street to listen to the balderdash of Polly Baca Barragan or ask a mexican Gustavo. I would tell them both to depart in a hurried way for Mexico. Of course the audience was seeded or ask a mexican would never have participated.

• Some debate.....an anchor baby whose parents entered the country illegally and a former Congressman who wants our immigration laws enforced. The fact that the anchor baby is a member of MECHA tells the story. This anchor baby is making his living off of illegal immigration and as far as I am concerned is anti-American. He's a smart ass and is one of those who thinks he's from Central Casting and is looking for a movie career. The debate was a waste of time. Tancredo wants the rule of law followed and the anchor baby wants to make fun of America and Tancredo. The real "know nothing" is the anchor baby. Orange County must be thrilled with this guy!

• Great Debate in a 90% audience that was anti Tancredo. Tom did excellent. The big applause of the night was the anti capitalism. Here is my question, why do people come from socialist countries to gain opportunity and then denounce capitalism with the words "Smash Capitalism". Why would they come here if they want to change Government to what the left?

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