Colorado gun-control laws go on trial: Here's why more than fifty sheriffs say they're illegal

justin.smith.205x205.jpg
Sheriff Justin Smith.
Today marks the beginning of what's expected to be a two-week trial pertaining to a suit filed by Larimer County Sheriff Justin Smith and more than fifty of his colleagues against gun-control laws passed last year. Included among them are a ban of all magazines that can hold more than fifteen rounds and a requirement for universal background checks on gun purchases. What are the sheriffs' arguments? The Independence Institute's Dave Kopel, who helped assemble the complaint (it's on view below), spelled out his main concerns in a wide-ranging interview.

As Kopel maintained in our original May 2013 post, the two laws, known as HB 1224 and HB 1229, "violate the Second Amendment and the Fourteenth Amendment" of the U.S. Constitution, as well as "the Americans with Disabilities Act" -- hence, the decision to file in United States District Court, where the case is being heard under the auspices of Judge Marcia Krieger.

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Judge Marcia Krieger.
The magazine restrictions are particularly onerous when applied to the disabled, Kopel believes.

"The ADA requires state and local governments to make accommodations for disabled people, particularly in regard to major life activities," he said. "And many disabled people have less ability when they're attacked in their home to retreat to a point of safety or get behind cover from which they can change a magazine. They may have less mobility, or some might have only one arm, for example.

"So it's more difficult for them to change magazines than do other people -- and therefore, even if the magazine ban were constitutional in general, which we argue it is not, the people with relevant disabilities are entitled to reasonable accommodations to larger magazines."

Of course, exceptions for the disabled wouldn't be necessary if both laws are struck down.

What troubles Kopel about the magazine ban? First and foremost, he maintains that while the bill on the subject seems to only prohibit mags that support more than fifteen rounds, it actually "bans almost all magazines."

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A thirty-round magazine.
The reason? A line in the bill nixing magazines that can be readily converted to fit more rounds. Since such magazines are used for semi-automatic handguns and rifles -- and because an estimated 82 percent of handguns and at least one-third of rifles manufactured in the U.S. fit in this category -- he sees the result as "a de facto gun ban even broader than the one that was struck down in D.C. v. Heller," a Supreme Court case that tackled prohibitions against handguns in the District of Columbia.

We've included the D.C. v. Heller decision below, as well as a 9News report about the issue originally broadcast in March that Kopel recommends.

As Kopel pointed out, "The governor's office and the sponsor of the bill both agree that the magazine ban outlaws all magazines that have removable base plates or floor plates" -- e.g., the kind that can be adapted for more rounds. And while Governor John Hickenlooper is relying on guidance from the office of Colorado Attorney General John Suthers to apply the rule narrowly, such an approach doesn't bring with it any guarantees that the interpretation will stand for all time."

Why not?

Continue for more about the complaint against Colorado gun-control laws, including a video and complete documents.


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69 comments
Brian Martinez
Brian Martinez

I hope someone opens up on the Colorado cops with one of these......that is all......

tomkaah
tomkaah

We had a federal ban on magazines larger than ten, and Obama's own Justice Department concluded it did not decrease violence. Don't take my word for it. Look it up.

Matt Pyles
Matt Pyles

I say 30 round mags are fine! Most gun owners who have ARs, AKs etc. are responsible and quite nice. I get no beta mags( no one needs 100 rounds..) So, 30 rounds, go for it.

Natasha Schwertley
Natasha Schwertley

Sean Valdez, if you are responding to me can you please try again, but in English?

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

What about the Palsied Spastics who are too handicapped to squeeze the trigger each time they want to fire a round ?? ... shouldn't they be allowed FULL AUTO !! ... so they can pray and spray their high capacity magazine with a single pull of the trigger?


And what of those handicapped with no hands / arms?? ... should they be allowed booby-trapped trip-wire activated M18 Claymore mines that go off automatically upon intrusion?


Clearly the Second Amendment allows NO GOVERNMENT restriction or limitation upon ANY Person or ANY firearm, ANYwhere, ANY place or ANY time.





Sean Valdez
Sean Valdez

That is a stupid argument Gabriel Giffords shooter still shot how many people? So saying someone stopped him while he was changing magazine is just dumb he used a tech 9 so now you think that if get rid of extended magazines that will solve everything so a mass shooter will actually be stopped faster the body count will only be 2 instead of 9 so instead of addressing the problem of why so many middle class right wing children shoot up there school or mall we have just made it so the body count will be really low. GOOD JOB! Talk about common sense!

George White
George White

Natasha Schwertley: thank you. Could not have said it better.

George White
George White

Like words of wisdom coming from shoot-happy cops means anything to us. Guns in the hands of cops is a dangerous combo. Just sayin'.

Ray Koren
Ray Koren

It's not the will of the people. Multiple Dems have lost their jobs or bowed out over this because they know their constituents are pissed.

Natasha Schwertley
Natasha Schwertley

Nothing in the constitution says you can't limit magazine size. This infringes no one's rights. Also, having to switch magazines out is what stopped the Gabby Giffords shooter. Why give the ' bad guy ' such an easy way to inflict harm upon so many so quickly? Give the 'good guys ' time to address the situation by stopping the barrage of shots from the bad. Sometimes all you need is that extra second or two to save lives. I realize common sense and guns don't often go hand in hand in the US these days (thanks, NRA) but at least the courts have typically upheld these types of completely legal laws in recent challenges.

David Barton
David Barton

I'm not sure that magazine restriction would realistically prevent many incidents, and I'm not a big fan of poorly written, unenforceable laws. But listening to a bunch of redneck sheriffs claim that the issue is really about accommodating the self defense needs of the handicapped is nothing short of hilarious. Of course, rather than have any realistic talk about how they could help lower incident rates, they focused on being contrarians. Awesome. And Red Dawn scenarios? Please. Paranoid schizophrenia precludes people from purchasing guns, but for some reason culturally paranoia does not. Ugh....

Proh Fundo
Proh Fundo

Who would want to invade ? We produce nothing... we are broke...and our roads suck

Mark Bromley
Mark Bromley

Let's hope the USA is never invaded by an enemy force. Because anyone caught behind the lines would be only half as effective as an invading military soldier with a full capacity mag. There goes the military's plan to put a civilian us veteran on every street corner. A dog with only 50% of his wedding tackle working will have a lower chance to create puppies. For those who are prepping for worst case situations this kind of law is like neutering them.

Proh Fundo
Proh Fundo

What kind of cops dont want high capacity magazines off the street ? The ones that have never seen what happens when some kook empties one or two into a crowd of people..thats who..

sjburkhardt
sjburkhardt

What is the difference is someone who is disabled is able to fire a five round clip as opposed to a 30 round clip? And what is wrong with universal background checks?  I would hope that the Sheriff Department would want to ensure that felons and mentally handicapped persons didn't get their hands on firearms.  Damn frivolous lawsuit, waste of time and the tax payer's money

Dan Brown
Dan Brown

There are some good points, but in general if an idea comes from the Independence Institute it is worth questioning. Is anyone lobbying to have the ban on magazines modified so it fits the criterion listed here? It sounds like it would be supported by gun owners if it was increased to 20 or 30 rounds?

Josh Nadler
Josh Nadler

I feel like there needs to be some balance between gun freedom and gun control. I'm not likely to ever own a gun, but these laws just don't make much sense. The thing that didn't make sense was comparing it to Amendment 2. Gun ownership is a choice, sexual orientation is not.

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter


Ex-Boulder deputy who survived 2008 shootout found dead in his home


A former Boulder County deputy who survived a shootout with a gunman near Nederland in 2008 and won a medal of valor for his actions was found dead Thursday afternoon after a resident reported hearing a single gunshot from inside his home near Nederland.


The Boulder County Coroner identified the 51-year-old man as John Seifert, a former Boulder County deputy honored for valor after a shootout with a gunman who killed the general manager of the Eldora Mountain Resort on Dec. 30, 2008.


"Like so many heroes, he had a really difficult time handling that," said Boulder County Sheriff Joe Pelle. He said the office worked with Seifert after the shootout to try to get him the help he needed.


Derik Bonestroo, who worked at the resort, shot and killed Brian Mahon after announcing at an employee meeting that he planned to kill anyone who did not share his religion. Seifert, a deputy who worked the Nederland area, responded to calls for help and saw Bonestroo speeding away from the resort. Bonestroo pulled over his car and, according to reports, rolled down a window and opened fire on the deputy.



Read more: Ex-Boulder deputy who survived 2008 shootout found dead in his home - The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_24722273/ex-boulder-deputy-who-survived-2008-shootout-found

Monkey
Monkey

@DonkeyHotay  I can legally possess a suppressed full auto M-16, and so can anyone else who can legally possess a revolver, if they pay the tax and dance the dance, handicap or not. All anti-possession laws do is increase the value of the things they restrict.

wuzyoungoncetoo1
wuzyoungoncetoo1

- "he used a tech 9"


What are you babbling about?  Loughner used a Glock 19.

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

@Sean Valdez "So saying someone stopped him while he was changing magazine is just dumb"


It's a fact, asswipe.



rlemerysgt
rlemerysgt

A moron who knows nothing of guns, tactical or anything related to guns cant make a knoweldgeable or correct statement on firearms at anytime, hence natasha words mean nothing to reality!

schotts
schotts

Your right, it doesn't say you can't limit magazines.  It doesn't say you can either.  But it does say "shall not be infringed"


Don't you think that contradicts your notion about restricting magazine size?

Want to restrict magazine size?  Fine, restrict those over "common use" which are those up to and including 30 round magazines. That is what LE uses, they aren't above the law. 

rlemerysgt
rlemerysgt

The time the police responds to engagement distance of the shooter is 21 minutes at Sandyhook, 12 minutes on average. 

How you going to get police there any quicker? 

See if you cant even prove your claims mathematically, how do you expect sane people to believe your claim? 

The kids that escaped hid from Lanza and ran out afterwards. 

There is no physical evidence lanzas rifle jammed. 

There is no physcial evidence he fumbled his reloads. 

If the kids had escaped while he was reloading or ran out the door of the room several students would have been shot and in the hallway, you have evidence they were, no? 

Hollywood fiction has it that everyone running from an active shooter in a group will all die, reality is some will get away, so again, where are the dead kids in the hallway? 

No the facts and the simple math do not agree with the antis position. 

But hey, we see how Loughner overloaded a 31 rnd magazine, broke the return spring, and the gun failed to load into battery and he fumbled his reload when he did this, allowing intended victims time enough to attack. 

FT Hood shooter, had practised his tactical reload and was witnessed to be very accurate to 100ft. 3 Army personnel attacked him unarmed, 2 died, 1 is crippled for life. 

Holmes had a quantity of 2, 100 round Beta-c-mags, tempermental and prone to jam unless loaded and lubricated properly. Holmes jammed the rifle on the 1st 100 rnd mag at the 30th round. 

This left 170 rounds of .223 unfired as he couldnt clear his weapon. Think there could have been an additional 6-7 deaths and 15-20 injuries if he could have fired the rounds eh? 

Reality is laws cant be based on luck or experince. 

The normal result of someone unarmed attacking an active shooter is they get blown away. 

You go right ahead and support smaller, ultra reliable magazine capacities so unlikely to jam as you make such untrained killers inherently more efficient at killing. Such are the unintended consequences of ignorant fools!


rlemerysgt
rlemerysgt

No, the US Supreme court will eventually see the challenge to this and it wll be eliminated because of the idiocy you support!


Shall we review how magazine capacity doesn’t affect didley, yeah, lets.


It will be looked at as a time study, we who set manufacturing processes up do lots of these studies to accurately predict labor, material usages, predictions and savings.


Response times by the police range from most times 10 to 12 minutes from first call.


Witnesses identified shots were fired at 9:30 am when announcements were being made.


http //www politicalswagger com/sandy-hook-police-audio-timeline/


The first call was 9:35:44 to police dispatch.


In Sandy Hook, the first police officer arrived on site at 9:38:38!


09:40:24 (Dispatch) Cars responding, shooters apparently still shooting in the office area, 12 Dickenson Drive. Last shots heard–Lanza killing himself!


09:51:51 We have a suspect down, 21 minutes after the shooting started!


Time line:


Adam Lanza tried to open a locked door, couldn’t, so he shot the glass out to gain entry upon which time the principal and school psychiatrist & vice principal came from the office and confronted Lanza who then killed two and wounded one. Total elapsed time, approximately 1 minute.


Then Lanza walked down the hallway to the 1st kinder-garden classroom about 20 ft away, max time to do so, 15 seconds, where he killed 1 teacher & 14 students.


Lanza then walked across the hall 25 ft away, max time 15 seconds.


Where upon he killed another teacher and 6 students.


Professional shooter can change a magazine in 1.4 seconds, someone familiar with the weapon, which Adam was, can do so in 3.0 seconds.


Since we know that he fired 154 rounds, using 30 round
magazines, and frequently changed them out after 10-15 rounds just as a veteran video gamer does, that is max 10 magazine changes x 3.0 seconds = 30 seconds.




Cyclic rate for the semi-auto rifle/pistol is 60 rounds per minute so 1 shot for every pull of the trigger per second = 154 seconds.




Total times 




Office killing 1min=60secs


Hallway walk to 1st room = 15 seconds


Hallway walk to 2nd room = 15 seconds


Shootings =154 seconds


Reloads = 30 seconds




264 seconds total = 4.4 minutes




Now if Lanza had been limited to 10 round magazines as anti’s
claim would limit the ease of killing, at 3 seconds reloads, needs say 20 mag’s based on his reloading habit magazines = 19 reloads x 3 seconds = 57seconds.




That is an additional 27 seconds to the total = 4.85
minutes total. Oh wait, Lanza had 16 minutes to do all this from the time of the call to dispatch, in actuality he had 21 minutes as that was when police were close enough to engage Lanza and confirm he had offed himself. Explain again what an additional 27 seconds would have done, oh that’s right, not one dang thing!


Oh what is this, a sheriff in IN, Ken Campbell, Boone County (just north of Indianapolis) proving exactly what is stated above both with pistol, rifle, and the Biden solution!


http //www youtube com/watch?v=b2Upjn5DR0o&feature=player_detailpage

http //www youtube com/watch?v=A1bu7Y8iwXA&feature=player_embedded


Reality is, limiting a shooter to 10 round magazines doesn’t prevent jack schiite and you cant prove different!


Harris & Keibold had 10 rnd magazines at Columbine, didn’t slow them down any.


Cho had 10-15 rnd magazines (standard capacity) at VA Tech, didn’t slow him down.


Such a consistent trend.

teebonicus
teebonicus

You are categorically incorrect.


In 1939, the SCOTUS ruled that arms in common use that would advance the efficiency of a militia are those that come under Second Amendment protection:


"With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such [militia] forces, the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view." - United States v. Miller (No. 696) 26 F.Supp. 1002, reversed (1939)


Given the command in this precedent, it is settled law that banning any arm or component that enjoys this protection is unconstitutional.

lhmf2002
lhmf2002

With a country of 300 million+, you are punishing 100 million gun owners for the acts of a very few people. What if you are the one defending your family and have to change mags? It gives the bad guys the advantage to kill you or your loved ones. There is a 1 million more chance of a good guy needing the extra rounds than a mass murderer. Your analogy is ridiculous. You have a better chance of winning the lottery than being killed by a mass murderer.

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

... delusional apocalypse much?

Rucker61
Rucker61

@sjburkhardt For the first part of your question, statistics show that even trained law enforcement officers take 3-5 shots, on average, to hit a live target with one bullet, and that it takes 1-3 hits to put an attacker down. That's a trained LEO who could take up to 15 shots to stop an attacker. Considering that any other citizen could need more shots per attacker, and could be facing more than one attacker, limiting their immediate ammunition supply could prevent them from defending themselves and their loved ones.


With regards to the second part, Sheriffs are indeed quite interested in ensuring that criminals and the mentally disturbed don't have access to firearms. These bills do nothing to prevent that activity, and if you'll read the text of the lawsuit on page four, you'll see how they've specifically spelled out the problems with these laws.

schotts
schotts

I don't support any magazine ban but the reality is, increasing the number to 30 would exclude the vast majority of standard size magazines and would significantly reduce the push back on this law.  


Dems had the chance to improve it, they refused to even bring up a bill to do so.  Dems will lose some of the 55 legislative seats they currently hold in November.  How many?  Any Dem in a swing district better hang on tight...Giron is a great example.  Nobody expected her to lose the recall, she lost big in a heavy Dem district.  

rlemerysgt
rlemerysgt

Wow, you do realize that the cost of the over 3,750 plus people employed by BATF, FBI and state agencies for background check process, cost the US over $300 million each year, dang.


http://www.justice.gov/jmd/2014justification/pdf/fbi-justification.pdf

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/2012-operations-report       

So in 2012-2013 the FBI spent over $68 million on salaries (see section 2-1 and 5-8 to 5-11) and shows an increase of $100 million in salaries and benefits for expansion to support the massive increases in NICS transactions run in 2014!


So we see that us $168 million in salaries, but wait, that doesn’t cover the entire NICS operations cost to tax payers.


See, 13 States contact only state, 7 states contact state for handgun & FBI for long guns (80% of all guns purchased are handguns) and the remainder use NICS for both handguns and long guns.


That means roughly that $168 million (just in salaries and benefits) are being spent in 2014 for 30 states operations of the NICS…hmmm!


So there must be a way to figure out what cost there is accrued in the states who don’t use the NICS, yeah, we can.


Can anyone claim government is any more efficient in those 20 states than it is in the 30 states using the federal NICS, no, didn’t think so!


In 2012 there were 8,725,425 million background checks processed by federal (1,143,049 by e-check)


10,866,878 transactions were processed by state users


So lets see $168 mil/30 states = $5.6 mil average cost per state using federal NICS

20 states x $5.6 mil =  $112 mil cost for 20 states not using federal NICS!


Oh wait, that is only $280 mil cost to tax payers to run the NICS for both federal & states…hmmmm.


How much does it cost to run all the facilities, and support functions of their daily operations….


Amazing how one can easily show that taxpayers foot the bill of $330 million a year for  NICS, and only show maybe 1 or 2 injuries prevented each year, WOW ISNT THAT SUCH A GREAT THING, well, maybe to a moron socialist it is!

rlemerysgt
rlemerysgt

Then of course one must also look at how many people the background check supposedly saves.




Since physically stopping a person from acquiring a gun, is only accomplished by putting them in jail, one only has to work from the avg number of incidents a gun is used by a bad guy in a crime and calculate against the number of bad guys actually put away!

Of course you anti guntards can prove that people stop trying to lie, do evil by comparing the 4.48% of bad guys who are supposedly stopped from buying a gun results in the well publicized and proven human trait of giving up, as you anti guntards have clearly demonstrated how you give up your pathological lies, hate and ridicule after being stopped in oh so many of your gun control anti rights efforts!




In 2010 using NICS, FBI, USDOJ, Police Firearm Dishcharge reports, CDC data, we see.....

1.248 mil violent crimes reported, 74.65% not reported, 322,000 involved a gun, 85% of incidents no shots fired, 15% of shots fired hit target 1 in 7 injuries fatal.




Which if one calculates out the multiple USDOJ studies showing that over 80% of all violent crimes are committed by career criminals, gang members, crazies & domestic
violence abusers..we see the following.




(total successfully prosecuted by BATF in 2010) 44 x 15% = 6.6 total people involved with shots fired

6.6 x 15% = 1 person hit by shots fired

1 x 20% = .2 people hit by shots fired by non criminals, .8 people hit by shots fired by bad guys




Wow, you do realize that the cost of the near 3,000 plus people employed by BATF, FBI and state agencies for background check process cost the US over $300 million each year, dang.




So explain again how that $300 mil + in background checks is justifiable to save maybe just 1 person?




After all it is the BATF and government loopholes that are being exploited by the bad guys, and you want to spend at least another $250 mil a year in expanded background checks that dont apply as a prosecutable charge to the bad guys.



rlemerysgt
rlemerysgt

Oh wait, lets actually look at what the BATF/GOVERNMENT actually does to enforce the existing laws. LOL!


BATF prosecutes less than 1% of the 2.043 mil rejected since 1997.

BATF doesnt do anything about the 95.52% of bad guys (21 mil + since 1997) who dont even try to buy from a licensed source to begin with.

BATF doesnt allow civilians access to NICS for background checks on provate sales.

BATF out of 139,651 rejected in 2010 only prosecuted 44, 26 straw buyers, 11 felons, 7 domestic violence abusers, no crazies.

BATF let over 297,577 straw buyers pass the background check and buy over 446,363 guns in 2010 (over 2.23 mil+ since 1997)

Govt. refused to resource to input the mentally ill & felons into NICS database with only 4.865 mil severely mentally ill and felons in NICS database as of Mar 2013 while there are over 31.793 mil of both in the US.

Govt. refuses to resource people and moneys to pursue the 1.043 mil + people wanted on open felony warrant of whom 50% are probably severely mentally ill as are 50% of current 2.7 mil prisoners.

Man them are some nasty loopholes the government & BATF have created.


When are you lefties going to fix these BATF & Govt. loopholes instead of making more useless laws that per Haynes vs US 390, 85, 1968 & Freed vs US 401, 601, 1971 which affirm the 5th amendment right of no self incrimnation, makes 85% of all gun control laws not applicable as a prosecutable charge eh?


You know, licenses, registrations, background checks etc, etc, etc...all require someone to IDENTIFY THEMSELVES.


So explain again how a law, you cant punish a bad guy with, will reduce violence by said bad guy eh?


Oh thats right, you lefties will wave your magic fairy wand and sprinkle your magic fairy dust and wish it to happen, LOL!

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

@Monkey "I can legally possess a suppressed full auto M-16"


So why don't you? 


Is it because gun control laws do work?


Don't forget your M203 grenade launcher, as no Rambo-wannabe weapons ensemble would be complete without it.


schotts
schotts

@DonkeyHotay  What's a fact is he dropped the magazine as it got caught up in his coat pocket when he went to retrieve it.  One of the victims, who was on the ground next to him saw it and grabbed it.  Loughner tried to wrestle it away from her and in the meantime another victim grabbed a chair and clobbered him with it.


Facts matter, these facts are out there.  Research them.

wuzyoungoncetoo1
wuzyoungoncetoo1

@DonkeyHotay  "It's a fact, asswipe."


Well, no...it isn't.  He was stopped because the cheap aftermarket "high-capacity" magazine he was changing to failed to feed the first round, and he was tackled while fumbling with it and attempting to clear the malfunction.  Standard Glock mags...notorious for their reliability...would have allowed Loughner any number of mag changes, just like Cho at VA Tech, who changed magazines at least 11 times at his leisure, because no one was able to oppose him.

rlemerysgt
rlemerysgt

@DonkeyHotay  But hey, we see how Loughner overloaded a 31 rnd magazine, broke the return spring, and the gun failed to load into battery and he fumbled his reload when he did this, allowing intended victims time enough to attack. 


Its an irrefutable fact jackwad!

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

@Rucker61  "Sheriffs are indeed quite interested in ensuring that criminals and the mentally disturbed don't have access to firearms."


So you don't mind denying OTHER people's RIGHT to Keep and Bear Arms, so long as yours is protected, eh?

How fucking special, you hypocritical gun-grabbing fascist.

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

@rlemerysgt ... so Registration works! ... and gives the cops additional charges and penalties to pursue those who fail to register.


Noted.

rlemerysgt
rlemerysgt

@DonkeyHotay @Monkey  


You mean the NFA...hmmm...since 1934 only 2 registered weapons have been used in a violent crime...both cops...then again when one goes to the FBI Trace data for each year, we see over 300 incidents of class 3 weapons as covered by the NFA and geez, 99% plus are not registered to begin with...why is that moron?


Oh thats right, criminals dont obey a law to begin with, that per the 5th amendment, cant be used to punish the criminals with to begin with....such is the settled and codified law we live under!

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

@schotts ... so you admit that the ARMED CITIZEN at the scene was USELESS with his precious pistol.


Noted.

wuzyoungoncetoo1
wuzyoungoncetoo1

@DonkeyHotay @wuzyoungoncetoo1  "That's how close he came to killing an innocent man."


And by "how close he came to killing" someone you mean "he never even unholstered his weapon".  Yep...you're an idiot.

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

@wuzyoungoncetoo1  <== lying gun-loon asswipe. 


====================


The new poster boy for this Armed Gun Hero agenda is Joe Zamudio.


Zamudio was in a nearby drug store when the shooting began, and he was armed. He ran to the scene and helped subdue the killer. Television interviewers are celebrating his courage, and pro-gun blogs are touting his equipment. "Bystander Says Carrying Gun Prompted Him to Help," says the headline in the Wall Street Journal.


But before we embrace Zamudio's brave intervention as proof of the value of being armed, let's hear the whole story. "I came out of that store, I clicked the safety off, and I was ready," he explained on Fox and Friends. "I had my hand on my gun. I had it in my jacket pocket here. And I came around the corner like this." Zamudio demonstrated how his shooting hand was wrapped around the weapon, poised to draw and fire. As he rounded the corner, he saw a man holding a gun. "And that's who I at first thought was the shooter," Zamudio recalled. "I told him to 'Drop it, drop it!' "


But the man with the gun wasn't the shooter. He had wrested the gun away from the shooter. "Had you shot that guy, it would have been a big, fat mess," the interviewer pointed out.

Zamudio agreed:

I was very lucky. Honestly, it was a matter of seconds. Two, maybe three seconds between when I came through the doorway and when I was laying on top of [the real shooter], holding him down. So, I mean, in that short amount of time I made a lot of really big decisions really fast. … I was really lucky.

When Zamudio was asked what kind of weapons training he'd had, he answered: "My father raised me around guns … so I'm really comfortable with them. But I've never been in the military or had any professional training. I just reacted."


The Arizona Daily Star, based on its interview with Zamudio, adds two details to the story. First, upon seeing the man with the gun, Zamudio "grabbed his arm and shoved him into a wall" before realizing he wasn't the shooter. And second, one reason why Zamudio didn't pull out his own weapon was that "he didn't want to be confused as a second gunman."


This is a much more dangerous picture than has generally been reported. Zamudio had released his safety and was poised to fire when he saw what he thought was the killer still holding his weapon. Zamudio had a split second to decide whether to shoot. He was sufficiently convinced of the killer's identity to shove the man into a wall. But Zamudio didn't use his gun. That's how close he came to killing an innocent man. He was, as he acknowledges, "very lucky."


=============================

wuzyoungoncetoo1
wuzyoungoncetoo1

@DonkeyHotay @wuzyoungoncetoo1  "there were ARMED citizens at Jared Laughner's murderous rampage ... and not a single one of those gun-toting NRA posterboys was able to draw, much less target and fire their weapon, before the carnage was over."


You're an idiot, or a liar...or both.  There were no armed citizens "at" the incident.  There was one legally carrying man shopping at the nearby grocery store who ran toward the incident when he heard the shooting.  By the time he got there Loughner's gun had already been taken from him and people were wrestling him to the ground, and there was no reason for the armed individual to unholster his weapon.


I don't know if you're trying to look like a complete moron, but if you are you're succeeding.

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

@wuzyoungoncetoo1 ... there were ARMED citizens at Jared Laughner's murderous rampage ... and not a single one of those gun-toting NRA posterboys was able to draw, much less target and fire their weapon, before the carnage was over. 


In fact it was UNARMED citizens who subdued him.


So much for your hero fantasy of armed opposition.

rlemerysgt
rlemerysgt

@DonkeyHotay @rlemerysgt  


Poor widdle lefty...


Lets identify who exactly is responsible for the majority of that violence first.

http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/2011-national-gang-threat-assessment

For several decades, studies have been conducted on crime and causalities by various bodies including major universities, criminologists and even the U.S. Department of Justice. These studies have found that approximately 80% of all crime is committed by 20% of all criminals. Some of the studies have provided slightly different numbers but all of them have found that a small group of criminals commit a vastly disproportionate number of crimes than their peers.(Wolfgang et al ., 1972; Petersilia et al ., 1978; Williams, 1979; Chaiken and Chaiken, 1982; Greenwood with Abrahamse, 1982, and Martin and Sherman,1986).

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/11/14/gun-violence-significantly-increased-by-social-interactions?s_cid=rss:gun-violence-significantly-increased-by-social-interactions

Andrew Papachristos, an associate professor of sociology at Yale, analyzed police and gun homicide records from 2006 to 2011 for people living in a high-crime neighborhood in Chicago. He found that 41 percent of all gun homicides occurred within a network of less than 4 percent of the neighborhood's population, and that the closer one is connected to a homicide victim, the greater that person's chances were for becoming a victim. Each social tie removed from a homicide victim decreased a person's odds of becoming a victim by 57 percent.


"What the findings essentially tell you is that the people who are most at risk of becoming a victim are sort of surrounded by victims within a few handshakes," Papachristos says. "These are young men who are actively engaged in the behaviors that got them in this network."


The network in question consists of more than 3,700 high-risk individuals – young, African-American males from a poor neighborhood – who were clustered into a network by instances of co-offending, meaning each person in the group had been arrested with another person.


Overall, the community's five-year homicide rate was 39.7 per 100,000 people, which was still much higher than the averages of other areas of Chicago (14.7 per 100,000). But being a part of that network of co-offenders, essentially just being arrested, raised the rate to by nearly 50 percent, to 55.2 per 100,000. What's more, being in a network with a homicide victim increased the homicide rate by 900 percent, to 554.1 per 100,000.


"You're at a risk for living in this [certain] community, but if you're in the network, your risk is astronomical," Papachristos says. "That rate is beyond epidemic proportion, that's actually scary."

http://www.pewstates.org/uploadedFiles/PCS_Assets/2011/Pew_State_of_Recidivism.pdf

Recidivism rates being over 40% as well!

2.7 mil prisoners


1.4 mil active gang members


2.5-3.5 mil active criminals


1.043 mil plus open felony warrants

Hence add in the career criminals.

CDC -Suicidal people speak for them-selves as suicide is a felony.

Shall we review police firearm discharge reports in Chicago and NYC where between 76-80% of those involved in shootings, both shooter and injured were both involved in criminal activity at the time of the incident.

www.popcenter.org/problems/drive_by_shooting/PDFs/Block_and_Block_1993.pdf,

www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloads/pdf/public_information/2007_firearms_discharge_report.pdf,

www.nyclu.org/files/nypd_firearms_report_102207.pdf


Yeah, review of all the govt. data above shows over 96% of all killings by illegal use of a firearm are committed by career criminals, gang members, suiciders & crazies w approximately 50% of the remainder due to domestic violence incidents.

A sane person would normally address the largest problem first don’t you agree?

Oh you want numbers, ok!

Since suicides are illegal, murder is illegal that means accidental deaths, justifiable homicides and the % of murders not committed by FELONS or any of the other 9 categories of people banned can be removed from the 31,084 total, which as noted in the multiple USDOJ studies and reports 80% of the most violent crimes are committed by career criminals, gang members.

Do the numbers now that you have the premise, here are the numbers for 2011.

31,084 killings by use of gun

9,892 murders

19,766 suicides

591 justifiable homicides (209 by civilians using a gun, 270 total)

835 accidental deaths

((9,892 x .8)+19,766)/31,084 -(591+835) = 27,860/29,658 = 93.9%.

Oh darn, forgot the FBI not reporting the correct number of justifiable homicides, so since 209 justifiable homicides were by firearm alone by civilians, 5 times 209 = 1,045.

So 29,658-1,045 = 28,613

Redone = 27,860/28,613 = 97.3% darn, that’s more than 96%, my bad!

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

@rlemerysgt


Jared Laughner -- another "law abiding gun owner" the NRA and Gun Loons are always yammering about.


... right up to the moment he pulled the trigger.


rlemerysgt
rlemerysgt

@DonkeyHotay  Loughner failed, and because he failed and overloaded the magazine the equipment failed...DOOOHHH!

DonkeyHotay
DonkeyHotay topcommenter

@rlemerysgt ... so your solution is to sell defective high-capacity magazines which fail ?


Sounds like something a U$ military subcontractor would do.


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